How Listening, Feedback, and Data Can Fix Talent Acquisition

Join us in welcoming Kristy Nittskoff, CHRO at CentralSquare Technologies to Start with Who!



This is an exciting one! We're welcoming Kristy Nittskoff, CHRO at CentralSquare to the show.

Kristy has spent her career building and consulting on talent acquisition, recruiting, and HR. She has boundless wisdom to share with us about building a healthy organization—esepcially as it relates to hiring. Listen in to hear:

  • The number one mistake talent acquistion teams make (hint, it starts with "DAY" and ends with "TAH")
  • Why time-to-fill is less important than conversion metrics
  • How listening, communication, and feedback loops can radically improve the effectiveness of TA
  • How talent and hiring managers can work together better to make amazing hires

This one is chock-full of gold. We hope you'll join us!

Thanks for listening to Start with Who: The Interview Intelligence Podcast! This podcast is presented by —where we're on a mission to make hiring and interviewing more efficient and equitable. Come check out what we're building, or connect with Grace and Ben on LinkedIn! See you next time!


(Transcribed by robots...sorry for the errors!)

Kristy: But then it's about really ensuring that you're treating the candidate as you would a customer or a prospect, this is someone that you want to make sure that you have constant communication with both sides, right? With the hiring manager and with the candidate to make sure that they're both brought in at every step of that process.

Hosts: Welcome to Start with Who, the interview intelligence podcast, I'm your host, Grace Tyson, and I'm Ben Battaglia join us on our journey as we learn about talent acquisition, hiring and tackle the challenge of building an amazing team. One interview at a time. We've invited CEOs, innovative people, leaders, talent acquisition experts and DIY movers and shakers as our guides would love to have you join us. Welcome to Start with Who.

Ben: Oh welcome back to Start with Who, Pillar’s podcast on hiring, interviewing, talent acquisition and building great teams.

Grace: We are here with the fabulous Kristy Nittskoff. Kristy, welcome. Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here with you all. We are excited to have you would love to start off, Kristy, with you just giving a little overview intro on who you are for all of our listeners.

Kristy: Sure so I'm Kristy. I am currently the arrow of CentralSquare technologies. I live in Chicago and historically have been really plugged and do the Chicago tech scene. I've got lots of experience in our technology companies. So while I've led at various tech companies, my biggest area of passion within human resources is around town acquisition, making sure that we're able to not only identify the best folks. For our opportunities, but also evaluate them and welcome them in the most comfortable way for everybody involved.

Ben: That's great. That area of passion is one of the reasons we're so excited to talk to you today. And as we were chatting before this episode, you mentioned that when you come into an organization, you're really passionate about innovation and building things that didn't exist before. So I'd love to start at the beginning. When you walk into a new organization, how do you get the lay of the land in terms of: what does talent acquisition and hiring look like at this business?

Kristy: Sure, sure. Well, it's a good question. And, you know, I wasn't always an HR Leader. I spent four years as a consultant. I had my own consulting company that focused on talent acquisition strategy. So a lot of the people, process, and technology behind talent acquisition or in front of talent acquisition. And so to answer your question, Ben, the most important way for me to understand how we can make improvements in any organizations is to start by listening.

And that starts with asking the right questions. Right? You can say, hey, tell me about your recruitment methodology. But when you really start to ask a targeted question based on experience, based on things you've seen at other organizations, whether on the hey, this went fabulously well or this went fabulously, terribly, that you're able to really get to the heart of not only how an organization thinks about recruiting and attracting top talent, but how they actually go about doing it.

Ben: Yeah, absolutely. Does most of the question-asking to happen within talent or HR people or is it more focused on hiring managers or executives? Like who do you go ask those questions of?

Kristy: Short answer is both. I mean, you have to get the well-rounded story right. So oftentimes, at least when I was consulting the CEO or the head of HR might bring me in and say something like, we've got a recruiting problem. And that's about all the information you would get. And the reason they're bringing in a consultant is because they don't know. They don't know where the problem lies. Or maybe it's like we can't hire good whatever salespeople. So then it's like, OK, let me talk to the recruiting team. Let me talk to the HR team. Let me talk to the hiring managers and let me talk to some employees who recently joined to learn about what their experience has been like, because it's not just about what happens. Well you're interviewing. It's about did they accurately represent the opportunity to you? What was your onboarding experience like? That's still the hangover, for lack of a better word, of the recruiting process. Is what's happened since you joined?

Grace: Absolutely, it completely impacts the employee experience. It all starts with that candidate experience, the recruiting process. So I'm curious, Kristy, if there are any typical themes when you go and you're getting the lay of the land and you're figuring out, OK, we have a recruiting problem or we have a talent acquisition problem, are there typical things that are the root causes that you see or typical solutions that are generally applicable?

Kristy: Yeah, it's a great question. So I would say the number one theme that I see is that the organization is not measuring results with data. So they can say something like it speaks exactly the example that I gave with like the senior leader or the CEO saying we have a recruiting problem, but I don't know what it is. But can you go figure it out? Oftentimes it's because they're not measuring things. One, in the right way or two sometimes at all. Right or they're collecting all this data and they're not looking at it or they're not looking at it in the right way. They're focusing on things in a silo like, well, our time to fill is x, y, z. It's like, yeah, but time to fill is such a small data point in the grand scheme of all the things you need to consider when we're talking about building a top recruiting program. So that's the place that I start first to really understand, like outside of the qualitative and anecdotal and, you know, verbal feedback that I'm hearing, like, let's take a look at what the numbers are showing us. If they exist, that is I'm sure it varies.

Grace: Let's talk about data little bit since you brought it up. What is the right data? What is the right way to look at the data? You mentioned time to fill as one small piece of the puzzle. And honestly, in talking to hundreds of talent leaders, that's the one I hear the most. So I'm curious, like, what does that get at? What does it miss? What else should great talent organizations be looking at and how should they be looking at data?

Kristy: Yeah, Yeah. Time to fill is not my favorite because it doesn't tell you that—it only tells you like a teeny tiny piece of the story. Right so what I often direct my team to my team actually does a great job of this now, but other organizations. And I'm giving advice about how do we make recruitment all that it can be, I focus a lot on conversion metrics. So what I mean by that is from the applicant top of the funnel to the amount of resumes that were then viewed, that were then asked for assessment, that were then asked for a phone screen. And so on down the line all the way to how many did we offer, how many accepted, how many started and setting the right benchmarks around each one of those stages tells such a more enlightened and full story about what's going on in your organization, because it might be that your recruiters are busting their butts to get people in the door and they're finding candidates that are spot on. And then it takes the hiring manager 30 days or whatever it is to even look at the resume versus then having them in for an interview and all this stuff. So looking at those conversion metrics, what I mean by conversion metrics is the number of person that move to phase 3 from phase two and making sure that you're really taking a look at every step of the candidate journey.

Ben: Mm-hmm I really like that as a marketer. I'm particularly intrigued by that because I think it's how we design the business—and like the sales funnel, like we work leads down through the funnel. And it totally makes sense to apply that to a talent context. I don't think it is frequently done that way.

Kristy: It's not because if you guys are looking for any recruiting work, I'd start there.

Ben: Do you think there's some natural synergies or like learnings to be had from marketing and talent acquisition?

Kristy: Completely? I mean, you all have probably seen the trend in the last, whatever, five, six years of employment, branding, recruitment, marketing terms that really didn't exist before. Right and the industry's finally waking up. They're realizing the importance and the similarities between marketing and recruiting, because really what a recruiter is, is part salesperson, part marketing person, part HR, part therapist. Right like all of us. But, yeah, I think we can definitely take a page from both marketing and sales as we're thinking about funnel and pipeline management.

Grace: OK, I have a question about that. So what do you think are the biggest behaviors that you've seen that negatively impact employer brand, for example, that could be controlled by the employees and really improved by the employees?

Kristy: Yeah so there's a term that I think is often used in personal relationships that I'm pretty sure started with recruiting, which is ghosting. And that is the number one frustration that you will hear on Glassdoor anywhere. Right like, why does interviewing suck? And it's because I applied, I spent X amount of time on my cover letter, God forbid, and, you know, all these other things to get prepped. And then I never heard from the company again. Like, how can you do that? Even if the candidate there is no way, there's going to be a fit. That candidate knows a lot of other people. They have a lot of platforms to share that feedback. Like you have to nurture every single touchpoint if you care about your reputation. And that gets back to brand management as well.

Grace: Yes, I love that. And I actually have seen that a lot on various companies, Glassdoors for sure of the candidates putting in all this work and pursuing the opportunity. And to not hear back feels really insulting on that. In your opinion, what is the appropriate amount of feedback to share with a candidate that you don't move forward with?

Kristy: Yeah, that can get pretty tricky, right. And it's really something that the company needs to determine what their philosophy is on. Well, I will say also it depends on what stage of the interview process you're in. If I were to apply to making this up like a neuroscientist position, it would be an immediate like. No, thank you. Appreciate your time. There's not going to be a fit there. But if I was a final candidate or I have spoken to a hiring manager, then you have a little bit of that relationship. That should be a different message and probably a different method to communicate that message than a blanket response of Thanks for your time. But we're passing, I think, in terms of the amount of feedback, again, you have to like build your philosophy around that, but you have to be pretty careful just for like legal reasons. Right you don't want to share too much. You want to share what's appropriate, but you really want a coach who's ever providing that feedback, ideally at someone and then our department or on the recruiting team about focusing strictly on the job responsibilities. I mean, ideally, that's why you're making the decision in the first place. But certainly when you're relaying feedback, that's got to be the sole focus, right?

Grace: Absolutely OK, I'm kind of pivoting a little bit here, but I'd be really curious. You mentioned ideally that is someone on the team for very clear reasons that's delivering the feedback just from a coaching perspective and actually saying something. That's legally viable and makes sense and is representing the company. Well, when you're thinking about hiring managers or a selection team members that aren't actually on the team, what do you want to say to them? Like what advice do you have for those other stakeholders in terms of how they can better interview and assess talent and provide a great candidate experience?

Kristy: Well, so I always suggest that anybody that's involved in the hiring process, whether it's the hiring manager or someone from the team, goes through an interview training not only to learn the process and the approach, but also to cover things like, what questions are we not allowed to ask legally? What are things that we want to stay away from if they come up and really helping them to feel comfortable? Because us as professionals and as recruiters, we interview people for a living. So we're always in that conversation. It's easy to forget that, like, this might be the only interview this person participated in five years or something. So it's important to give them that confidence and give them that knowledge and the framework. And in that training, you have to be pretty specific around HR handle the feedback piece, especially if it's going to be a declination. But that's part of educating hiring managers on the process to begin with. If they don't understand how you go about candidate experience that makes it, you just leave that open to interpretation, which is not the world you want to live in.

Ben: Yeah, that's so interesting. I feel like one thing we've run into before or we've talked and heard from people is that it's hard to turn the ship when you're sitting in an HR seat. So you have all these hiring managers who maybe have done things. One way for a long time. And you're a new CHRO or VP of talent. And you basically need to undergo a change management process to make sure frontline managers are in-line with your vision for hiring at this organization. How do you begin to turn the ship as a talent or people leader?

Kristy”: Well, I think first, it's again, to go back to like listening. I mean, if you come in as a new leader and instead of saying, this is the way we're going to do it here. Now and you first ask, like, what do you love about the recruiting experience? And usually you don't get a lot of smiles when you ask that question, unfortunately. So you start to say, OK, well, how can we make it better? What are some of your frustrations? They may not always have ideas and know how to make it better, but if you ask about what are some of your pain points, what are some of your frustrations and let them get it out, it almost becomes like you're targeting their specific need, even though it's the process that you want to implement anyway. Because, you know, you know, as a good recruiter, I like what the problem is. But if you let them share first, like, this is why I'm frustrated or annoyed, and then you come in and say, what if there was a better way? Or like, what if we tried this just for this role. And see what it feels like, see how it goes, see if we get a better candidate. Usually you can breed from that. Frustration is a good launch point for change.

Ben: I like that a lot. And I really like the idea of starting small with a department or a role to try to begin to snowball into change. I'm a big fan of that. That's great. The last question. I'll ask about hiring managers is this, obviously, for talent professionals, you're thinking really clearly about the candidate experience. You're thinking, I want people to have quick replies and I want every step to be delightful and quick. How do you encourage talent professionals to work with hiring managers to make sure that hiring managers get it? Because I think a lot of times that's not what they're thinking about. Day to day hiring is like their bonus job. They don't see it as like their primary job. And so how do you nurture that care for candidate experience in hiring managers?

Kristy: Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, open communication, obviously. But one thing that I've noticed has helped build a lot of trust and a lot of excitement is using a calibration meeting. So especially for a new opportunity, let's say this, hiring managers hiring for a brand new role never existed in the or maybe never existed on her or his team before. And you say, OK, let's sit down, let's have our intake call intake meeting about they're just going to look like responsibilities, growth path, things like that. And you say, let me go out and take a look at some candidates and these are not going to be applicants, but people I might pull from like LinkedIn or something. And then you're able to sit back down with that person and get their input again quickly. Then you sort of have that in right there guiding you. But you're also guiding them and they get excited like, oh, my god, yeah, that person would be perfect. Like, go find me, someone like that. That not only gives the recruiter a better idea of what's going to get the hiring manager excited, but it also sometimes helps to clarify some of the expectations, you know, within the position. And sometimes it also helps with budget. Right it's. Sort of like one of those house-hunting shows where it's like everything you describe is going to cost $5 million dollars, your budget is 250. So let's talk about how we compromise on that. Right so it's a good way to just keep the dialogue open and sets the good foundation for, like, we're going to be communicating together along the way.

Grace: I've definitely, as a hiring manager, had that conversation like you're looking for this. But based on the compensation that we can provide, this is not realistic.

Kristy: Exactly

Grace: Kristy, I would love to pivot a little bit away from hiring managers specifically and talk about overall recruitment excellence, which I know as a topic you're really passionate about when you're thinking about like other primary objectives. When you come into an organization, you talked about looking at the data and figuring out what the root issues are. But what are some of the other things you maybe put in place around recruitment excellence when you come into a new org?

Kristy: So a lot of it comes down to the foundational elements of the process. I mean, if you're not getting that good intake meeting, everything goes off the rails from there. And by intake meeting, I mean a standard format of which you ask different questions about where should this person be located, what sort of characteristics should they have, what sort of background or industry experience is going to be important. And really setting the foundation that way. That sort of goes back to what I was saying just a second ago around the calibration and building that trust, making sure you're on the same page. But then it's about really ensuring that you're treating the candidate as you would a customer or prospect. This is someone that you want to make sure that you have constant communication with both sides. Right, with the hiring manager and with the candidate to make sure that they're both brought in at every step of that process. And I you know, personally, I think it's about measuring that feedback after the fact. mean, one thing that we use at Century square is a candidate experience survey, and we use that for candidates that we make offers do as well as those that we don't, because we want every candidate to be treated with respect and thoughtfulness and responsiveness and all those things. Right and getting back to the data piece, that's something that we can then go and share back. And if the hiring manager doesn't care enough, then maybe their boss or their boss pass. Well to say like, hey, we are losing some good candidates and here are some reasons why.

Grace: I love that. I really love the survey. Are there any specific things you always make sure to ask on that survey to candidates while we try to ask about things that would derail the candidate experience in the eyes of the candidate?

Kristy: Right so things like. If you met with the hiring manager, did they describe the position in the same way they recruited it, did it match the job description? Like some of it's like such simple tactical stuff, but it's such valuable feedback and then it's things like, did the hiring manager show up on time after your interview? Like, did they have their camera on? Because we're all interviewing in a virtual world right now. I mean, stuff that is going to make. And sometimes break the candidate experience of accepting the job are things that you want to be asking about and getting feedback on. And the nice thing about a survey tool, it's something that you can tweak if your process changes. And you can tweak your survey to see if that was a good change, a positive change, a neutral change or a negative change. So I try to target on responsiveness and just overall like approach and care.

Ben: That's great. How do you decide which candidates get that? Is it?

Kristy: every candidate,

Ben: every single one, no matter the stage?

Kristy: every candidate that goes through to a hiring manager interview? OK,  so would it be, you know, every single person that applied, but if they had the opportunity to speak with the hiring manager, then they would get a survey.

Ben: Yeah, I think that's great. I think so often we just get feedback from the people we hire. And so I love that you're sending it to both declinations and acceptances because you're getting the full picture of what actually happened in the process. So I think that's wonderful.

Kristy: Yeah, whether you like it or not. But at least it gives you visibility, right. Because it's scary when you first start it. I mean, especially I came in, it was a brand new team that had been together for several years. And I was like, I want to survey. And it's not because I don't trust you, it's not because I'm trying to be a micromanager. I simply want to know. And I want to broadcast that back to our current managers. Right because what I don't want to have happen is, you know, and recruiters will always follow when I say this, but it's always recruiting fault, right? It's always HR’s fault. And it's horrible to really ask candidates like where did things go wrong off the rails if they did? And it's like, oh, it's because the hiring manager rescheduled four times. And then and then canceled. And it's like, well, that's why we lost the candidate. Right not an example from CentralSquare, by the way. But I happen.

Grace: It's a generally applicable, globally understood example. I would say probably most leaders of experienced I've talked to a number of leaders over the past months and I've definitely heard that story. So in terms of the structured processes for hiring, you know, what are the best practices you see that are just absolutely have in place. You talked about the intake meeting and the importance of that, which I totally agree. What's the impact to candidate experience of having structure versus not? I'll start there. Would love your thoughts.

Kristy: Sure well, one thing is about identifying what competencies are important, and that doesn't mean like must have five years of Java or something like that. Like, I want to talk about this person needs to be a problem solver. They need to be solution oriented and they must be whatever the third thing is. OK, hiring manager. Now, let's think about if those are your three competencies. Let's think about what questions you're going to ask every single candidate and what a good response is going to look like. If you ask someone about a question that targets whether or not they're solution oriented, what is a good response sound like? And making sure that you're then sharing that information with the others that are interviewing it sounds like. So simple, but it's so often is not done. And I'm sure we can all relate to interviewing with five different people. And every single conversation is like, so walk me through your resume. Yes oh, my God. You're so really thinking about, like the heart of their experience, who they are as a professional and what motivates them, making sure that aligns with what motivates your team and what you need to perhaps balance your team is how you're really going to not only learn more about the candidate, but also let them learn more about you. And it's not just about I said, you worked here for five years. Tell me about that. And it's like, talk to me about some of the things that really got you excited about x.

Grace: Yes oh, my gosh. By the way, I've had that experience. I've gone to an on site interview and each person spent 45 minutes back to back to back. It was like four interviewers talking about the deep dive on my resume. And it was such a bad experience. It was exhausting and frustrating. And I didn't have time to ask my own questions. And speaking of which, I was also a passive candidate. So that goes into my next question for you, Kristy. Do you think about, are there any differences at all when it comes to someone who's really passive and you're proactively trying to get interested versus someone who's actively applied? And how do you maintain consistency across those two different scenarios?

Kristy: Yeah, that's a really good question. And honestly, I've mostly thought of it on the front end in terms of the recruiting process. Right I mean, so we're talking about someone who applies. Versus someone we targeted, and I can tell you one of the main differences on the very front end of the recruiting process is when you go about issuing things like now I want you to fill out an application or go through this assessment process or something like that. So with the passive candidate, sometimes you might think differently about when you introduce something like an assessment or a work sample request or something like that. And it's more about getting them excited. And you might also think about different leaders to get involved. I mean, I put in our CEO on conversations around like I want to, you know, knock the socks off this person. And I think it'd be great if you talk to them. So that also plays a role versus like first, I want to meet you to meet with three people that might sit next to you if we ever get back to the office. Right instead, it's like, talk to our CEO and learn about our vision, learn about why this role is critical to our organization and how you can personally be impactful.

Ben: That's great. We've talked about a bunch of the steps leading up through the interview process. So far. And what we don't talk very much about is the final decision. And so you've talked about a lot of pieces from assessments to intake to coordinating around what the core competencies are, what's kind of the final step of decision making? Is it another meeting? Is it really the hiring managers decision? And how consultative is that? What do you recommend?

Kristy: Yeah, and that's one that it goes back to the recruitment philosophy that you have for your org. I mean, some organizations that are super, super data driven might leave it specifically to the we want you to rate it on these four things. Enter applicant tracking system. We're going to look at aggregate to that. And then the recruitment team is going to spit out our recommendation for hire other organizations. And my personal philosophy is it should be a conversation, but that conversation should really be between the hiring manager and the recruiter. Everybody ideally who meets with this candidate is submitting feedback. Ideally, it's both quantitative and qualitative. So scale of 1 to whatever. And then any written feedback you want to provide. And then it's up to the hiring manager to either have a conversation with those folks or look at the feedback they submitted, make a call. And then talk to the recruiter about how they want to move forward. But I do think there has to be some live dialogue around it. But ultimately, it is the hiring managers decision. I'm not a fan of. Well, four out of five people said, we should. I'm on the fence, but let's go with the team on this. And right now it has to be the hiring manager is final call. And sometimes you invite people as a courtesy to the current team and to the candidate. And I call that they're glad they're together, but they don't hold a role of influence. And the decision. It's good information for the candidate to have to help with their decision. And it's nice for the other people to feel involved in the process. But ultimately, their role is not one of influence when it comes to hire or not.

Grace: That makes total sense. Thank you. Ending on that note, Kristy, we'd like to pivot a little bit. Thank you so much. All of the insights you provided were amazing. And I very helpful for any leader who's coming into and inheriting or building a talent organization. We want to pivot to a little speed round. So that our listeners can get to know you outside of work makes Kristy tick. So we're going to ask you five quick questions and we'd love for you to answer with whatever pops to mind. So I'll start with what brings you joy outside of work.

Kristy: Yoga,

Grace: yes.

Kristy: I never, ever, ever thought that I'd be someone who had the patience for yoga, but what I've learned is yoga brings you more patients to your life. And you can get over that initial hump. You start to, like, really need it in your life. If you operate at the same pace that I do, that it really can change your whole outlook on the world and in such a powerful and positive way.

Grace: I love yoga. Do you have in COVID times? Do you do it independently? Do you have an app, you use or any recommendations?

Kristy: So it's funny, I had a studio here that I absolutely loved and unfortunately, they shut down right before I it, which was actually good timing because then we had some closure and whether it was like a low priority with the members, and things like that. And then I tried virtual class pass. And what I had found is I get so frustrated because you really have to plan, right? It's like, OK, I'm going to set aside this 90 minutes. And I would say 90% of the time right before the class happened, they would cancel it. And you're like, but I gosh, this, you know, frustrated. And so now my husband will go with me and we use I guess you can call it an app called Gaia. And it's pretty good. There are some interesting characters, some interesting instructors on there, but at least it's something that's On Demand. It's consistent. They've got really good search functionality. So that's awesome.

Grace: I love it. On demand is very key right now. That would be so frustrating to have the cancellation. Yes Yeah.

Ben: OK, taking a turn here. Do you have a favorite movie or TV show right now?

Kristy: My favorite movie is Robin Hood men in tights. Oh yes. It's such a good one. Classic, so many quotable moments. So yeah, that is my handsome movie.

Grace: That is a great response. I love it. Because if you had to live in a different country, what would it be. And why?

Kristy: My favorite country to visit is Spain. I would probably have to say Spain, I'd have to get much better at Spanish, but yes,

Grace: why spain? Out of curiosity, is it the food? Is it the language? It's something else.

Kristy: There's like an energy to Spain and obviously different cities have different energies. But like in general, there is just such vibrancy to it that it's pretty magical.

Grace: I completely agree. I am technically married, but we had a COVID wedding, so we're actually getting our celebration in 2022. Hopefully we'll be in Spain. If you can believe it. So definitely agree with you.

Ben: That's great.

Kristy: That's fantastic. What a great place to celebrate love. That's wonderful.

Grace: I know. I know. And the food, huh? OK, Kristy, what's one piece of advice someone gave you that was meaningful to you?

Kristy: Gosh, that's a tough one. I've gotten a lot of good advice, thankfully, over the years in a lot of bad advice. But hang on, I guess you hang on to both. But, you know, it's hard. I mean, I wouldn't necessarily say advice, but in terms of encouragement. Just asking, like, well, why not write, like, well, I can't do this because and it's going on, why can't you do it, why can't you go build it? Why can't you go write your own destiny? And I find myself raising that back to people a lot. And I think you just it opens up their mind and like the possibilities. Right because a lot of times where our own limitation. And if you sort of remove that limitation. And you say, why not dream big, it's like pretty incredible people can accomplish if they allow themselves to do it.

Grace: I completely agree. And also, you sound like you'd be a great coach, great life coach. OK, last question, Kristy, which is something we ask everyone on the show. It's an ongoing debate Ben and I have. Do you believe aliens exist? Why or why not?

Kristy: Definitely I definitely exist.

Grace: I'm completely winning this debate.

Ben: But very few people, unfortunately, have agreed with me. So that's OK.

Kristy: Wait, so you're of the camp of like. Absolutely not. There's no other life for us. Besides what we are able to see.

Ben: I don't I don't in that way. Yeah, seriously, you really pigeonholed me there. But yes, I just don't feel like I have the proof needed yet to be like, Oh yeah, of course, there's aliens. I just I mean, something

Kristy: you need to subscribe to Gaia because there are a lot of alternative beliefs on there. So

Ben: I believe they all coming full circle here. I'll come around one of these days, but for now, we're just asking everyone. We can look at it. Thank you so much, Kristy. This was a great conversation. I learned a lot. And we appreciate the opportunity to talk with you.

Kristy: This is one of my favorite topics. So I'm so glad that I have the opportunity to chat with you as well.

Grace: Thank you so much for coming on. And are you hiring right now?

Kristy: We are. We are. So please check out We've got a lot of great opportunities and check us out.

Grace: Perfect thank you so much.

Kristy: Thank you.

Hosts: Thanks for joining us for another episode of start with who, the interview intelligence podcast presented by Pillar. Find out more about Pillar and how to do the best interviewing of your life and build an amazing team, all starting at And if you like this episode, leave us a review or shoot us a note. We'd love to hear from you. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.